Interview: Daniel Lanois Talks Bob Dylan, Brian Eno and Red Dead Redemption 2

Catching up with the super producer ahead of the release of his new album, 'Heavy Sun'

Photo by Marthe Vannebo

If you were to compile a list of the most impactful and imaginative recording producers of the last five decades, Daniel Lanois’s name would almost certainly be near the top. In the entire history of the Grammy awards, only four producers have ever managed to win three different Album of the Year awards. One of those producers? Daniel Lanois. The Canadian guitarist practically owned the 1980s, while helping monumental artists like U2, Bob Dylan, and Peter Gabriel reach new, creative zeniths with The Joshua Tree, Oh Mercy, and So.

His sonic palette is almost as vast as his appetite for new challenges, and the range of genres he’s explored throughout his prolific career — alt-rock, country, ambient, pop, roots, gospel, and of course, soul — is staggering. He’s done everything from helping Eno score a documentary about the moon landing, organizing the music for Billy Bob Thorton’s breakout feature film Sling Blade, and hitting the studio with D’Angelo to record a track for the blockbuster, 2018 western video game Red Dead Redemption 2.

But while he’s most well-known for his many, many high profile collaborations, Lanois has also remained an artist in his own right. Beginning in 1989, with his debut Acadie, Lanois has released over a dozen different projects under his own name. His most recent Heavy Sun, a gospel-infused and organ heavy rumination on the state of the world at large, is set to be released just a few months from now on March 19th.

Recently, I had the opportunity to talk to Lanois about his approach to music, some of his most high-profile collaborations, and the album that he almost very nearly made with Soundgarden frontman Chris Cornell.

First, I gotta say, I really love the organ as an instrument and genuinely enjoyed the tones you got across the entirety of Heavy Sun. It sounds fantastic.

Yeah, me too. I'm a fan of the organ. I've always liked organ records ever since I was a kid because the pure form of the organ can handle everything: chords, bass, melody.

Exactly. It's a versatile instrument, but also carries a certain a soulfulness. 
I got to hear some of the old timers when I was a kid playing that style of organ, and I guess there's some new people doing it. Cory Henry out of New York. He's a pretty good player. In regards to the back in the day artists, something sweet about the coming of that wave of culture, largely because of the Baptist churches that did not spend money on the very big type organs but went to the Hammonds.

Were you exposed to the Hammond organ in church as a kid? 

I was not exposed to organ in a church as a child. I first became aware of the Hammond sound when I started going out to hear soul bands as a kid. It was pretty standard for there to be a Hammond of sorts, usually a B3 on stage. Can you believe people were hauling these things up and down stairs?

Yeah, that’s insane. Were you much of a fan of Booker T. & the MGs?
Oh, absolutely, yeah. And I got to hang out with Booker T. a few years ago.

Did you really?
Yeah. Yeah. It was in Echo Park, funny enough, in LA.

Oh, wow. What was that like?
He was a guest DJ, and I hung out with him a little bit. Oh, it was just crazy. I asked him what was going on back in the day. He says, "Well, people don't know that I played a lot of bass." He played bass on a lot of records.

A legitimate legend. 
Yes, and I always really appreciate Al Jackson's drumming on the records. He was an interesting drummer because he would really push the group along. He played a little bit on top of the beat. Really on top. Just to hear where the high hat is sitting and how it pushes things along. So, yeah, Booker T., I mean, we were all inspired by that all the way back to Green Onions. I can remember I was listening to Booker T. and Green Onions on a big system as a kid. I had baggy pants on, and the bass frequency was shaking my pants, and I thought, "I'll never look back."

Did you manage to finish up Heavy Sun before the lock down went into effect?
We did most of the work before the lockdown, and then I took everything back to Toronto to do mixes and assemble the record up here. The song, "Every Nation," which I think is third in the sequence, I finished that as a song in Toronto, because it was only in a half-finished state south of the border. So, we're sitting in the same position as everybody else, but luckily most of the vocals were done before the pandemic. And we did a couple of sessions with everybody maybe around March, April, in there when things hadn't gotten real bad yet.

With everything that's kind of been going on in the United States lately, I was really stuck by the hopeful note you struck throughout this album. Especially the last month, it was a pretty wild juxtaposition to the feeling in the air. I’m curious, what was the general message you’re trying to get across?

We've been talking about that over the last week or two, obviously, as the pendulum has swung from all kinds of protests, Black Lives Matter and then what happened in DC. We never created this music as some kind of a response to any of that. We just understand that people need joy. And I believe this music has that in it, and it's part of a byproduct that comes from singing with people. You have to harmonize, and so it's selfless in a way because you want to serve your mates. I think that that camaraderie, that harmony, makes us way to the eardrum of the listener as well, so it's not so self-absorbed. It's offering a place of refuge.That's a way to look at it. And we're hoping that people find something like that in this music, if they think that it's a nice balance to some of the madness that's happening around the world in light of day, you know?

Sure.
I wrote about it regarding the song "Power," which we're releasing as a single soon. The record company said, "Well, why don't you say a few things about why you wrote 'Power'?" I said, "Well, there's not to say. It's just people got the power. It's been said a lot before." But then I got a letter from Brian Eno two days ago asking me to sign a petition regarding injustice in Uganda. Now, I don't know much about Uganda, but I read what he sent me. And apparently over there, there's pretty much a dictatorship operating under the guise of democracy. And just to bring people's attention to that problem over there…if we ever hear of African countries in these times. So, I wrote a little something about empowerment, betterment, by Uganda or otherwise. As another friend said, in times of division, it's nice to unite on something.

“Power” really made me think of of the Patti Smith and her song, "People Have The Power." It’s an immense message.

I mean, bless her heart. She did a beautiful song a long time ago and just a reminder that power is not only about empire power, but we have the power to change something about our personal lives, and isn't that how it starts?

I have to tell you, I was literally listening to the album Music for Airports yesterday by Brian Eno, and it’s kind of wild to hear you casually bring him up like that.  
Oh, yeah that's a beautiful record. I love the vocal number on that, the long tones. Yeah, Brian really followed his instinct at that time and wanted to make records that were soulful but textural, that people could, again, find refuge. I don't think of those kinds of records as background. I see them as a very present force in a room that might cause you to take a look in the mirror and see what's happening in your own heart.

I've talked to a few people that have worked with Eno over the years, like David Byrne, and I’m curious about what your experience was like?
He's just the best. Obviously a very intelligent man who's lived a lot of life and seen a lot of culture. When I first met him, I was operating out of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, which is north of the border, just north of Buffalo. It’s kind of a blue collar town, and I hadn't traveled much. I was pretty good at my craft, but he opened my eyes to other ways of seeing music. I appreciated that his vision was as concentrated as it was because I come from nothing, really. We had to keep a recording studio going and keep the lights on, so I was working on a lot of different kinds of records and maybe some that I shouldn't have made because bill paying is not everything. And so, when Eno came into my world, he was so specific about his vision and direction that it really jumped on me. I thought, "Well, I'll never do anything I don't want to do again." It's nice to have that kind of fork in the road as presented by a friend. I can't say enough about him. One of the best and a great friend.

Is it true that you used to work recording music with Rick James in your mom's basement?
Yeah. It's a funny story. I started a recording studio in the basement of my mom's place with my brother, Bob, and we were down there for a long time, almost 10 years. And it was kind of a nothing place, really, just a basement. And Rick James is from Buffalo, so a mutual friend, Eddie Roth, hooked us up, and I did make some demos with Rick. This was before he was well-known.

Right, right. 
I was very, very impressed with the man. My goodness. He showed up alone, so he played all the instruments. He was a great drummer, great singer, bass player, obviously. It was a bit of a PhD over the course of a few days.

Fast forwarding, I have to admit, I’m not a huge video game person, but I played a bit of Red Dead Redemption 2 these last couple of years and was pleasantly surprised to learn much later that you worked on the music for it. How did you get involved in that project, and what’s it to make music for a video game?
Yeah, it surprised me as well. I was just minding my own business, doing a show in New York, in fact, with the Blades. I forget the specifics, but we were all huddled up in New York and I got a call from Margaret Marison who works with me, and she said, "These folks really love your music, and would you stop in and have a meeting with them?" I stopped in at the Rockstar Games office, and I really liked those fellows. They showed me what they were up to and it seemed as though it would be an opportunity to do something unusual.

Sure.
It's scoring, really. But in the case of the game, it's stem scoring, and that appealed to me because I thought I've never worked this way where I would separate the components of my work and have certain components show up for certain scenes. I thought, "Oh, that's an interesting way to provide variation to the theme." So that's how it started. And then they added a cherry on the cake. They said, "I think we can get you working with D'Angelo." And I thought, "Are you kidding me?"

I mean, who’s going to turn that opportunity down?
We had another meeting, and D'Angelo turned up. I liked him right away and thought, "Well, that's not a bad place to start from." I mean, like you, I've never been much of a video game player, but I appreciated that it was an opportunity to serve something other than myself, because when you're scoring or writing for someone else, it takes a little bit of the songwriting pressure off because you're just trying to serve the project at hand. I appreciated that some songs came quite quickly. There's one called "Cruel World" that I wrote for Willie Nelson.

Oh, man.
We went to Willie's house. And we recorded it in two takes, so I got a chance to work with Willie again and to work with D'Angelo in New York, which was a fantastic experience. We laid the track down pretty quick. I already had percussion, but [D’Angelo] played a Fender Rhodes [piano]. I played my electrified acoustic guitar. The backbone of it happened pretty quick, and then he did those beautiful harmonies. My goodness. It was kind of an eye-opener for me because it took me back to the Haitian quartet I recorded in my mother's basement.

The way he layers his voice on Voodoo and Black Messiah, honestly, there's nothing else like it. It's insane.
I know what you mean. And when we were talking about Al Jackson playing on top of the beat, D'Angelo does the opposite: relax and lay behind the beat. I've always admired his rhythmic position within the song or tapestry.

How long did the whole Red Dead process take, and how much music did you end up recording?
It took a while. The traveling part appealed to me quite a bit because I went to New Orleans to record Cyril Neville and some of the great singers that I know; Daryl Johnson and some of my mates down there, because he had a studio in New Orleans for a long time. I said to the Rockstar guys, "Well, why don't we try and fit in on a trip to New Orleans?"Some of the game happens in a New Orleans setting. They give it another name, but it's obviously something happening in the South. I thought, "Well, this may be an opportunity to give some of my mates a call and see if they want to do something on this. “It was a nice trip to New Orleans, and I think it complemented the vibe of the game nicely.

So, you mentioned New Orleans, and I have to bring up the Bob Dylan album Oh Mercy which you recorded together down there. It's personally one of my favorite records and I'm curious about what you took away from that experience? 
Oh Mercy was...let's call it a private record. We did not have a large band. In fact, it was largely Bob and myself and Malcolm Burn at the helm of the console. A lot of it was recorded with a Roland 808, which I know is just a beat box. I decided to use the beat box rather than have a drummer in the room for the foundation. I really wanted to get the center of the record as strong as possible, which would be Bob's words and Bob's voice. Then I used a very simple little technique. We both play guitar and sometimes acoustic guitars, and I electrified the acoustics and had them come in through small amps hidden around the corner behind cushions.

Right.
So we had a Roland 808 dictating the time, and then our guitars were isolated from the vocals. So, if Bob wanted to modify some lyric lines and punch them in a couple days later, then we had that flexibility. I was able to hang on to the golden moments of early takes, and then as usual, if we're lucky enough to have some magic, then we chip away and do repairs and whatever want to do to enhance something that's already great in the center. So that's the nature of that record.

That sounds really smart way to go about it!
It's a nighttime record. Bob at a certain point realized it was going nighttime. He says, "Okay, we only work at night." 

His newest one, Rough and Rowdy Ways has a nighttime vibe too. 
It gets said that we are satisfied with slower tempos at nighttime, and I think there's some truth to that. The day's work is done, and you want to sit around and get into the groove.

Did the two of you ever talk about working together again after you did Time Out of Mind in 1997?
Bob came to my place and played me the standards that he had recorded [for Shadows in the Night, Fallen Angels and Triplicate]. The more orchestral records that he made. He played me 20 tracks and I really liked what he turned up with. We had a nice time. We talked about life and this and that and the other thing, but we didn't plan on working together again. I operate by invitation, so he knows where I am.

I just recently wrote a book about Chris Cornell, the lead singer of Soundgarden, and one of the things I found when I was doing the research for the book is that in 1999, after Soundgarden broke up, you guys were supposed to work together on his first solo album. Do you remember what your interactions with him were like?
Yeah, Chris stopped in at my shop at the time. I have my shop in Oxnard, California, which is, for those who don't know the coast, an hour north of Los Angeles. I thought, "Well, beautiful voice." I said, "Why don't see if we can get something going?" So, we did have a meeting. I forget why, but it never evolved to working together. I wish I could tell you the reasons, but sometimes things don't click for whatever reason. He might've been looking for a change in direction for himself, I'm assuming. I don't know why we didn't work together, but I liked him. I thought he was a good person.

I know musicians across the world are struggling right now with the inability to tour and I’m curious what you might be working on as this period of isolation drags out? Well, I'm in Toronto right now, and I have my studio up here. I'm here every day. I have been enjoying making some films, because I make films as well, and so we just made a film for "Power," which is quite good. I'll probably continue working on films to support the songs that get released as singles for the Heavy Sun record. And then we work on the graphics, the artwork for the packaging and all that. That aside, I'm playing a lot of piano now.

Oh, nice.
Margaret, who I mentioned a little earlier, likes my piano playing. And she said, "You should make a piano record." I'll see how it goes. Maybe we'll put one of those out, which would be fun because I've always appreciated the pure form of the piano, much like my appreciation of the pure form of the Hammond. But I'm not a piano player, and so I'm hoping that I get by on the strength of melody. I might have a little Erik Satie in me or a little Harold Budd. I'm not fast, but I get there melodically. Melodies, sometimes when they're simply played, are as potent as any other way you'd want to hear them, you know?

My last question before I let you go is, what music are you listening to lately? Anything you’d like to recommend?
Well, to be honest with you, I haven't been listening to too much music because when I'm working on my own thing, I don't listen to other records too much. There's a hip-hop station in Toronto here that I listen to in my car when I drive back home, back to my apartment after a day in the studio. What's interesting about the hip hop, it's gone to harmony, a lot of it. I wish I could tell you who I'm listening to because it's not a genre that I'm very knowledgeable on. But I appreciate what people are doing because I can hear the wizardry in the studio concoctions; the beats, the samples, the harmonies. I'm thinking, "Oh man, maybe that's what we're getting back to now. We're going to get some great modern harmonies singing.”

I don't know if you watched that Bee Gee's documentary recently, but it made me really appreciate their use of harmony, and how unique it was.
Yeah, man. We are human, and we like voices. That and the drum are probably the original two instruments.

That’s really true.
So let the show begin. Or let it all continue. Last but not least, soul music rules. And I'm not talking about Motown specifically, but music that touches people's hearts. That soul music. And if we could be considered a member of the club at least for giving it a go, I'm happy with that.

Further Listening: Daniel Lanois Edition

Brian Eno - Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks (1983)

Daniel Lanois began working with Brian Eno in the late-1970s as an engineer. His first task was to record Eno, while the former Roxy Music synth player paced around Lanois’s Toronto recording studio ringing a series of bells. It was a relatively inauspicious start to a pairing that would change the music world for years to come. Some of their most interesting efforts went into this early, ambient collection, which was meant to score a documentary about the moon landing titled For All Mankind.

U2: The Unforgettable Fire (1984)

When U2 tapped Eno to producer their fourth studio album, Lanois came along as part of a package deal. Little did the Irish rockers realize at the time that it was the beginning of one of the most fruitful artist/producer collaborations of the entire decade. While some in the band were initially skeptical of Lanois, drummer Larry Mullen Jr. took a real shine to him and was truly encouraged by the amount of time and attention he payed toward the the band’s rhythm section.

Peter Gabriel - So (1986)

Lanois had worked with Peter Gabriel prior to 1986, when the pair collaborated on the score to the the Nic Cage drama Birdy. So was a different beast altogether. Come “Sledgehammer” and that song that was in that one movie with John Cusack. Stay for the for hi-hat heavy intro that Lanois arm-twisted The Police’s drummer Stewart Copeland into recording for the album opener “Red Rain.”

Robbie Robertson - Robbie Robertson (1987)

From one Canadian musical icon to another. This self-titled record was he one-time Band leader’s first foray as a solo artist, and while it’s fallen somewhat out of favor over the years, it was beloved enough around the time of its release to nab both men a Juno award for Producer of the Year at the 1989 ceremony. If you haven't yet, you really gotta check out Robertson doing his best impression of yet another Canadian musical icon — Leonard Cohen — in “Somewhere Down The Crazy River.”

U2: The Joshua Tree (1987)

What can you even say at this point about The Joshua Tree that hasn’t been said before? It’s without a doubt the band’s magnum opus and a true cornerstone record of the 1980s. The first four songs alone, “Where The Streets Have No Name,” “I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For,” “With or Without You,” and “Bullet the Blue Sky,” represent one of the most ridiculous opening runs in the history of recorded music.

Bob Dylan - Oh Mercy (1989)

Low key a Top-10 Dylan record. “Political World,” “Everything is Broken,” “Most of the Time,” and “The Disease of Conceit,” are all fantastic, but gimme “Man in the Long Black Coat” every time.

Daniel Lanois - Acadie (1989)

After so many years assisting others behind the boards, Lanois stepped out into the limelight for the first time in 1989 with his debut album Acadie. It’s a decidedly overcast album where plucky folk melodies collide with swampy atmospherics; where Lanois alternates between English and his own Quebecois French. The whole thing culminates with a mind-shattering rendition of “Amazing Grace” as sung by Aaron Neville that really needs to be heard to be believed.

U2 - Achtung Baby (1991)

Another album with U2, another decade-defining triumph. Have you even been to a wedding where they didn’t play “One” at least once?

Emmylou Harris - Wrecking Ball (1995)

Emmylou Harris has one of the best voices in Country/Americana. She’s also one of the genre’s most underrated artists. Wrecking Ball is as fine a place to start as any if you’re looking to jump into her solo discography. It’s widely regarded as the finest album in Harris’s voluminous discography and from track one, a take on a Lanois original titled “Where Will I Be,” it’s easy to understand why. It’s also nice to hear Neil Young back HER up for once.

Bob Dylan - Time Out of Mind (1997)

Lanois’s second, and to-date, final go around with Dylan. This time, the pair decided to ditch New Orleans and record together in Miami. The sessions were at times fraught — “The recording process is very difficult for me. I lose my inspiration in the studio real easy, and it's very difficult for me to think that I'm going to eclipse anything I've ever done before,” Dylan told Guitar World in 1999 — but the results speak for themselves. Another masterpiece for an artist who’s career is defined by releasing masterpieces.

Willie Nelson - Teatro (1998)

20 years before Lanois worked with the Red Headed Stranger on Red Dead Redemption 2, the two men got together to record this album, Teatro. The name was taken from an old movie theater that Lanois had converted into a recording studio in Oxnard, California. “There is something Spanish in Willie’s guitar playing that I love,” Lanois remembered in his excellent memoir Soul Mining. “A European tone, with a Django Reinhardt spark to it.” If you wanna hear exhibit A of what he means, check out “I Never Cared For You.”

Neil Young - Le Noise (2010)

Leave it to Neil Young to name his album after his producer. Or, well…kinda. This is one of the more interesting entries into Neil’s canon. It runs heavy on Crazy Horse-style, sludgy guitars, but without the benefit of Ralph Molina or Billy Talbott to give the songs more shape. Nevertheless, it remains one of Neil’s finer latter-day records, and also gave us our first glimpse into the song “Hitchhiker,” which had been stowed away in the vaults for decades.

Daniel Lanois - Goodbye to Language (2016)

Lanois’s most recent solo album prior to Heavy Sun finds him reaching back to his ambient roots. If the mournful cry of a lap steel guitar sends a quiver through your heart, you’re going to love this one.